Christina: [00:00:00] My name is Christina Crook and I am the author of The Joy of Missing Out. I want to welcome you to the JOMO cast, a brand new podcast for founders and creators seeking joy in a digital age.

JOMO is the joy missing out on the right things. Life taking things like toxic hustle, comparison, disconnection, and digital drain in order to make space for life. Giving commitments that bring us peace, love, meaning, and joy.

All right. So this week on the podcast, we are speaking with Cristian Villamarin and Alanna Harvey, who are the creative minds behind Flipd the app that demonstrates how digital wellbeing and productivity are naturally compatible, and how JOMO is not about turning your back on tech, but changing your relationship to it to one that's intentional, healthy, and positive. [00:01:00]

I met Cristian and Alanna in Toronto when they invited me out for coffee after reading my book a couple of years ago, and it's been incredibly exciting for me to see this local Toronto tech startup, which is focused on digital wellness, grow and expand and transform over the last couple of years.

My particularly favorite parts of the conversation I had with them in downtown Toronto were about how launching and leading a successful startup is possible while holding space for active hobbies and building outside commitments and relationships outside of work. Alanna and Cristian are a couple, they're both athletes, and they do a really great job of holding joys of their outside of work life, um, in balance with the joys of also building their company, which is also a great joy for them. Uh, another thing I really liked about this conversation is we got into a conversation about how you build a business. You know, we hear a lot about why [00:02:00] Simon cynics, you know, uh, very successful Ted talk about, start with why, but we got into a conversation about the, how of building a company being as equally, if not more important.

And the final thing I really enjoyed about this conversation was hearing from them, how they together are building healthy tech habits as a couple, and they have some really awesome suggestions, and that comes near the end of this interview. Enjoy this week's episode of the Domo cast. Thanks for listening.

I'm sitting with, correct me if I'm pronouncing it wrong, is it Cristian Villamarin? Yeah. Okay. And Alanna Harvey, of Flipd App. Welcome to the JOMO cast.

Alanna: Thank you. We're excited to be here.

Christina: So Alanna and Cristian reached out to me a number of years ago when I feel like Flipd was just an idea or was just starting out.

Alanna: A long time ago. I think it was probably like 2015 maybe.

Christina: Yeah. [00:03:00] And a lot has happened since then. So I'm really excited to sit down with you both. So we are in downtown Toronto. I usually like to set the scene. So we're right in the hub, kind of what you would call Toronto's times square.

Alanna: More or less.

Christina: So it was very busy getting in here this morning.

Even some of your team members aren't even in the office yet because of subway delays. It's all part of reality. Um, so I wanted to start off, uh, obviously this is the JOMOCAST, is a podcast where I talk to founders and creators who are embracing the joy of missing out to thrive in a rapidly changing world.

Um, I wanted to start off by asking and maybe I'll ask Cristian first. Um, what does the joy of missing out mean to you?

Cristian: For me, I think it just means living in the moment, not really thinking what, what is happening elsewhere or what is someone else doing? It's like, I like to live here where I am today.

That's sort of the way that I live life. I don't really care about what other people are doing if I'm not there. Um, [00:04:00] and then if I'm with someone right now, um, if I'm with Alanna, if I'm with you, I, I try to bring all my attention to this moment and work is still happening behind me, but I'm not thinking about what's happening there.

I'm just, I'm here with you today. That's what it means for me.

Christina: I love that. How about you Alanna?

Alanna: For me, it's about getting lost in the moment. Um, really immersing yourself in moments that, you know, it could be five minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, a whole day, and you're just sort of there, fully present. You know, for us, it's when we go for a run, um, for you, I know it's when you're swimming, like you, you just get in this like, zone that nothing else matters. For me, it's cooking or honestly petting my cat for like five minutes.

And it's, it's just these feelings where you, nothing else really matters, except that exact moment that you're in no matter how big or small. Um, and I think that, our [00:05:00] phones and technology can really get in the way of that, which is why I worry for people who don't get to experience those moments often enough.

Christina: So you kind of touched a little bit about how, how you're personally embracing those things. You're talking about swimming, running together, cooking, petting the cat. I love that example. I feel like Jordan Peterson talks about like, when you see a cat, like you should always pet a cat.

Alanna: I can sit there and just like stare into her eyes and just be like petting her face.

Cristian: Or any cat I see walking around the neighborhood.

And it's like, there's a cat. I got to stop and pet it. We're just like, we got to keep moving. We got a destination to get to.

Christina: Because I think, and we're going to get pretty deep into this today. Talking about Flipd and the ways that it's intentionally helping people disconnect from technology, but, and I'm curious to hear your experience with this, that when I speak to people about the removal of technology, it kind of sets people into a panic.

But if you start to talk to them about the things that they can fill those spaces with, like those positive, joyful [00:06:00] moments of being present to your loved one, or doing an active hobby, that really gives you a lot of joy and meaning, and also just personal benefit, physically petting your cat, um, then people can start to wrap their heads around, okay, yeah, this is worth it for me. Have you encountered a bit of that in your work and in the ways that you've been developing the app? I guess the question is, um, when you talk about the removal of technology or reducing screen use, do, the people that you speak to on a daily basis have anxieties around that and how do you kind of work them through those anxieties?

Alanna: I would say that, it sort of begins with how Flipd is positioned. So we are, we have two different, uh, business channels. The first is for regular consumers who go, Hey, I have a problem with using my phone too much, and I want to use something that will motivate me to spend time away from my phone. Um, and that's exactly what [00:07:00] Flipd does.

And we help you celebrate, you know, the 30 minutes, hour, and in many cases like whole entire days, our users take off.

Cristian: It's the intention that the person is making, right?

Alanna: Right. Um, and they, they celebrate those moments. They love to track it. So it's, it's about seeing that you are spending your time away from your phone productively or doing something that makes you happy and, and feel like you're accomplishing something. Um, where we've had, definitely, I would say some pushback would be in cases where we're going into a classroom, um, and Flipd is being used to help increase engagement. Um, and our, our professors were like champions of Flipd or like, this is going to help you guys, I swear, like, you know, if you Flip off the entire semester, you'll get a hundred percent of the bonus marks that I'm offering here.

And there's just those handful of students who are like, there's no effing way that I can do this. Like, are you kidding me? And like, they're angry.

Cristian: And those are the ones that use their [00:08:00] phones the most, they're the ones that needed the most, but they're like, I don't, you can't tell me to do that. Right. Um, but that's what we want to do with Flipd; it's sort of like self-awareness. If you realize that everyone's around you is not using their phones, it's okay for you to not to use it. And you kind of have to be surrounded by that environment or people that you notice are not using their phones. I think we kind of influence our friends when we're all together and no one touches their phones.

Yeah.

Alanna: Everyone makes the joke now, like I'll flip off Alanna, why don't you flip off? Like, if I'm on my phone, when I'm with my friends and like it's, it's it catches on and I think. Um, it, like Cristian said, it's just creating a level of awareness that wasn't there before. Um, and also having that, that sort of champion the person like you, like us, who's who's saying, Hey guys, like, it's really not so bad.

Like you can handle it. Especially for an hour of lecture, I find it so funny when we get like pushback like that. Um, but like I said, it's, it's, especially with instructors, they recognize like how important it is for these kids, because a lot of them [00:09:00] are, uh, first year university students, no one has ever told them, Hey, like unplug it's really good for you.

Um, and so when we see the benefits at the end of the year, like they get better grades, there's higher attendance in all these classes. We know that we're doing something right.

Cristian: I mean, they will say to their professors, I actually enjoyed the no one else was using their phone. It becomes part of like a joke in the class,

Alanna: Like, I didn't enjoy it, but I enjoyed the no one else was on their phone.

Cristian: So we've, we've always been focused on like, not, like the carrots are like making it a good experience and not telling you how much time you're spending on your phone. I find like that is the wrong way to go about it.

Alanna: Yeah, IOS screen time being the stick.

Cristian: Like if your Fitbit told you how much time you spend sitting down and you're like, I do not want to wear this Fitbit ever again.

Right? Like we do

Alanna: You sat down for 18 hours today.

Cristian: But if you, if you focus on like the time that you were standing and walking, what did you do when you were taking those steps? That regardless, if you do 10,000 steps or 5,000 steps, you end up walking and, it was good for you. And we're trying to do the same thing with Flipd. [00:10:00] Five minutes, 30 minutes an hour, the full day, we all have different goals.

We all have different lives and it's a different milestone for everybody. And you can't just put everyone on the same place. It's like, if I spend an hour a day on my phone, you must spend an hour. You might just 30 minutes might do the trick for you, right? Yeah. It's like running. Some people get the runners high when they run for 10 K some people with 5k, some people they need to run like 20 kids. So, it varies.

Christina: Okay. So let's take a few steps back, just people when people know what we're actually talking about when we're talking about Flipd. So I heard you talk about the iOS. So obviously that's been an awesome, I personally think it's a great addition to the operating system for people to see their screen time use, but you're right. That it is framed in that negative sense of, and I find that's very powerful for people when I do workshops or talks, you know, when you walk people through and show them how they can check those things, there is this shaming element to, oh, wow, this is a bit of a wake-up call, but I really like how you're talking about framing it positively. You're right. If someone had a Fitbit [00:11:00] or this thing strapped to their arm every day, that's like, basically a shame odometer, like you feel really bad all the time. About the time you're not active.

So let's talk about Flipd and the app and how it's like, what it's actually tracking and how it's motivating people to use their technology more mindfully.

Alanna: Yeah. So uh, very simply put, Flipd is a sort of like a screensaver that when you turn it on, um, as long as you keep it on, uh, that means that you're not using your phone. Um, so you can exit out of it at any point, if you decide you want to quit, um, but you have to be intentional about that. And it, it means that you've sort of ended your session, um, and our users will tag their sessions.

Um, you can start one that's called study for, for three hours, um, or there's one that's, um, all day. And that's eight hours?

Cristian: 12.

Alanna: That one's 12.. Um, and so what, what you, what you end up doing is you can see sort of how your time is [00:12:00] being well-spent, um, across all of the different activities that you do off when you're spending time away from your phone.

Um, so it's empowering people to take the screen time, like uh stats, what they're seeing there and actually correct it by going, okay, this is all the time I'm spending away from my phone, more positively.

Cristian: Yeah, we're very focused on the time well spent and the activities that people are doing, whatever time well spent means to you.

Um, studying, sleeping, exercising, we all have a different definition, but it's setting the intention to, I'm going to put my phone away to do X. I'm going to go read for an hour. And within that hour, you might pick up your phone and Flipd reminds you, Hey, you're reading. Get back to what you're doing. And that's, that's what we're trying to help people, be reminded of their intentions and, and continue improving those, those goals. We all have 24 hours. So how are we spending those 24 hours per day?

Alanna: And that's why it also works, um, in the classroom like I described, um, because, a couple of years ago, when we first [00:13:00] started this, we were initially just a consumer facing app.

Um, but we realized that there are a lot of educators out there that are really struggling with how to engage their students. I spoke with one the other day, who is calling his 2008 to 2014, teaching years his golden years and that everything since then has just completely fallen apart that no one is engaged.

Students are coming to class without answering questions, people, he he's a great teacher, but literally can't get people to not use their phones.

Cristian: Um, which correlates when people cell phone adoption really took in everyone else.

Alanna: And then, well, yeah, when you look at, there are a lot of different, um, studies out there, especially Jean Twenge, which talks about how after 2012, sorry, we tipped over 50% of adoption for smartphones. Um, and so that it was interesting. He sort of said like after 2014, it's just like all fallen apart. Um, and of course he uses Flipd and he was like, it's completely changed everything. Like [00:14:00] students, it gives them sort of this sense of like ownership, like, Hey, I can do this. Like I'm, you're being challenged.

Cristian: He calls it like classroom professionalism or something like that. And I love that word. It's just like I'm creating like, like a professionalism level in my classroom. And this is sort of the way that we work, which is how life really works is you go to work, you can't be on your phone the whole time.

Christina: So what listeners might not know is that Flipd actually locks you out of your phone.

Alanna: Yeah. Well, there's different, there's different levels. Um, so there is one, uh, where, yeah, you're locked out of all of your apps, but then there's this other more, more light mode where you just turn it on and you can exit it at any point, and what it's doing is tracking. The same way that a Fitbit you turn it on, it tracks your run, you turn it off. Your run is finished. Um, if you kept it going, then that's more time spent off your phone. Um, so it's that, that, that's how the two different, uh, features work.

Christina: How come you created Flipd?

Alanna: That's

Christina: Cristian's story.

Cristian: Um, I, when I moved to Canada in 2008, I was here as a refugee.

And [00:15:00] during my time here, my first year, I was going through a process where I had already finished high school. I couldn't go to university. I couldn't get a job. So I was kinda like, I kind of have to chill for a year. Um, and I wanted to really maximize that year. So I had to figure out how am I going to like better spend my time. Like, what are the things that I'm going to do to make sure it doesn't feel like I wasted a year of my life? Um, so I got into like yoga, reading, all these different activities. Um, and then eventually when I got to university, I moved away. Um, I became really close with my younger brother who is 11 years younger than me.

Um, and I gave him his very first phone, and I'm like, dude, we gotta stay connected 24 7. You know, I want to make sure that I don't miss out on all the things that are happening in your life. Um, and almost after I gave him his phone, I realized how much he changed. He became someone that became quiet, would go to his room and just play with his phone.

And I felt responsible. Like I gave him the phone, I impacted his life, and I don't want to take it away. [00:16:00] How can I use technology to make it cool to disconnect? Um, and then Alanna and I started talking about the idea of, you know, let's find out if this is a real problem. And we went to Dundas square, like walked on the street and ask people, Hey, how do you feel about people using their technology?

No one really talked about themselves, everyone talked about the problem with someone else. Uh, but that's when it kind of clicked that we are, all of us are kind of offended by the way people use technology around this. Um, so we decided to start Flipd. Um, that's really, when we started, we thought it, we thought it was going to be, uh, a parental tool app to get parents and their kids off their phones, but it ended up taking a whole different spin once we put it on the app store.

Christina: If you could articulate maybe in a sentence, what is your hope in creating Flipd? What did you want to see happen? Culturally?

Cristian: I wanted people to be aware of what they're doing in the moment. And if they were on their phones. Like I wanted, if no, no, one's on their phones when they went out for dinner, they should be the ones it's like, oh, out of etiquette, I shouldn't be [00:17:00] on my phone, everyone else is engaging with each other, like kind of create a culture, um, where it's okay to be disconnected. That was, that was the goal.

Alanna: I do see that, um, especially with, uh, since our user base is mostly younger. Um, so they're between. You know, 16 and 24 years old or so, um, like the feedback that we're getting from some of them is stuff like, you know, I was given my first phone and no one ever told me or showed me how to use it or how to manage my time with it.

And Flipd is teaching me that. And I just find that so awesome. So that if we're doing anything right, that I'm, I'm, I'm happy about that.

Cristian: It goes back to my little brother, right? It's like, I don't want to, I don't live at home to teach him, but it's like, can we create something, create that culture shift or that behavior it's like, oh, okay, I have to disconnect when I'm with my family, when, when, when I'm having dinner or, you know, phones became like the cigarette and people were just pulling them out everywhere. And eventually we kind of been pushing them out to [00:18:00] do it outside. And Canada's like, you can't even do it like outside of the restaurant, it's like, go, go away.

Um, so that's, that's sort of like sometimes I see some similarities there.

Christina: What's the biggest struggle that you hear every day people talking about when it comes to disconnecting from their phones?

Alanna: Struggling with disconnecting,

Cristian: um, that's hard. Literally people would just would, they don't even think about a period of time and they just think that's hard.

Alanna: For us, we pretty much unplug over the weekends. Um, we still, we still use our, our phones, you know, here and there, but we're unplugged from our work. Um, and that's been something that people have sort of looked at us pretty critically about. Um like, oh wow, you don't do any work over the weekends. You don't check your emails and that kind of stuff.

And we're like, well, no, like I, I, we do, I think a great job prioritizing over the week. Um, obviously if there's something incredibly urgent, we would tend to it. Um, It's just to me, [00:19:00] like if you're, if you're just constantly plugged in, then I don't think that you're being your most productive and efficient self.

Um, so for us, it almost forces us, like, you know, 7:00 PM on a Friday night, like, that's it, you're done. You can't keep it going into the Saturday and Sunday. Um, you know, obviously there's every once in a while we do have to come in and do stuff. Um, but I find that's been an interesting, um, critique from others when it we're talking about what unplugging means to us, which in many cases is disconnecting from our work and making sure that we're, you know, JOMOing it out.

Christina: Um, are you getting that particularly from founders? Like, is that in? Yeah,

Cristian: Definitely. Yeah. Work hard, be connected all the time, be sending emails and it's like a bragging thing. It's like, I'm working harder than you, but it's like, are you because? I, I'm a, I'm an athlete outside of, outside of work. Like I train, I do all these things and I take [00:20:00] my rest period very serious.

Like in fact, like, Alanna's always, like, you gotta do yoga. You gotta stretch. Like it's important for the rest of your body and on the weekdays we're like going hardcore here. Like we're going, come in early, leave late, getting everything done. And then the weekends is a rest period. And sometimes when we talk about it, people just give us like the look of like, okay, these guys just are not, maybe they're not working as hard. And we're like, do we agree with that?

Alanna: Yeah, no, i, I think the complete opposite, I think we're working more efficiently. That's that's the way that I, I look at it. Um, And yeah, I was with founders, especially like, I, I talk a lot about work-life balance and I, I really don't care if people wholeheartedly disagree with that statement.

So many people do, but like, "no it's life balance. Like your work needs to be woven into everything you do." And I'm just like, but as a, as a leader, as a manager of people, I wouldn't want someone working all weekend and I would want to encourage them [00:21:00] to go have a hobby. I want you to feel like you can be having a side hustle if you want one. Like, I want to encourage people to make sure that they're unplugging from their work so that they can be better employees when they are working. Um, so for me, I think that truly is having work-life balance. Um, and I, I advocate that.

Cristian: We push that, like on our Monday meetings. The first thing we ask people, How was your weekend? What did you do not, let's dive right into work, by the way, it's like, we're all human. We all must have had a fun weekend. The weather was great. What did you do? And you know, that personal level that it's, it's okay to invest in yourself.

Alanna: Um, yeah,

Christina: it must make for a really great working culture, especially as a startup.

Alanna: I hope so. Yeah, I, well, I, I gave a presentation yesterday that was about hiring, um, and you know, growing your first team is to bunch of very early stage founders with founders Institute here in Toronto. Um, and that was one of the things that I was saying is like, this is actually a point of [00:22:00] differentiation for you.

You could be the company that works everyone to the bone that has, you know, high rates of burnout. Or you could actually like a company here in Toronto, like Borrow Well, who Eva, I've spoken to a number of times cares deeply about work-life balance. Um, and she has a fantastic team, has, you know, enjoyed really high growth.

Um, and I think that you can choose which kind of company you want to be and what kind of person you want to be. Are you always plugged in or do you find joy in missing out and, you know, getting out there and, uh, you know, invest in you, like Cristian said, investing in yourself and making sure that you're giving yourself that time grow and become a better person.

Cristian: We're corporate athletes, right? We just need that resting period.

Alanna: Yeah, totally. Exactly. If you look at athletes, imagine someone training like 24 7, right? It's not possible. You need to rest. You know, Yeah. Yeah, totally. That's a, it's a really good analogy. We constantly are thinking about this in terms of like fitness and stuff and how it affects the body and the [00:23:00] mind.

So yeah,

Christina: This wasn't a prepared question that I had for you, but it's something that I read this morning. Um, there's a company in Vancouver called Domain 7 and I'm on their email list. And my friend is the person that writes this newsletter every couple of weeks. And she was talking about, you know, Simon, Sinek's why, right?

Like start with why, but their founder, their CEO challenged that, and basically said that the how is, if not more important, at least equally important and how you build your team and also how you just build your business. And I think that's something that I've wrestled a lot with, with JOMO is how do I with integrity, bring this, you know, this movement and this conversation forward in a way that aligns with the value of human connection, the value of just the mess of human relationships.

Um, there isn't an, you know, an obvious solution to the problem of digital overuse, I think, that's a silver bullet for every person. [00:24:00] I don't know if that's, you have found that to be true. Like everyone has unique professional and personal demands. And so, you know, what works for you, you know, in terms of exercise isn't necessarily, um, the answer for another person.

I think the, how is really important. I, and I hear you talking about that as founders, you know, that, that I hear that it's a big value for you, how you guys lead your team, how you personally, um, yeah, model that within the founder community. I think that's really inspiring and like completely lines up with the values of Flipd, right?

Like what you're trying to do, right?

Alanna: Yeah. I think, yeah. And from, from early on, we always believed in what it was that we were doing and what we're trying to accomplish. Um, I think it's definitely evolved over time. Um, but the message is still there and the why has only gotten stronger and you're right.

I've never really thought about the, how being just as important if not possibly more. I've never thought about that. Cause we're all [00:25:00] just like the, why the, why the, why why, like start with why, um, but start with how maybe that should be...

Christina: Or "and how." And how are you doing it? And how is your team? How is your team actually flourishing?

How are you actually flourishing? If the goal is human flourishing, then how we're doing it? I think matters just as much.

Alanna: Totally. I love that.

Cristian: That goes back to our values and it's like, do we, are we doing it right? And heading towards the right goal. And, and you, you and I constantly check with ourselves or like, are we doing, are we being the leaders that we want to be being mindful about the things that we're doing?

Alanna: Are we being the people we want to be too? Yeah. Like I know if, if we were working our stuff, just draining ourselves and never finding space to unplug. Um, you know, the one that I hate is like founders, and I know we're, we're moving, we're talking a lot about entrepreneurship, but I think it has a lot to do with JOMO.

Cristian: Um, because like founders who sort of were like, I haven't taken a vacation in two years and I'm just like, well, [00:26:00] then you must not be very healthy at all.

We come back from like taking time off and we come up with ideas with new perspectives. It's like important to sometimes take a step back. Look at what's happened.

It's like, how can this be this be better? Because sometimes we're like in the weeds we're in, like in, in the soup and we're cooking and sometimes we want to be the chef and kind of like, look at it. Things are looking good.

Christina: Like I'm not part of the soup, I'm actually making the soup.

Cristian: But sometimes you are in the soup and you can't see anything around you.

That's the way that I see it.

Christina: Cristian, I really like your analogies a lot.

Alanna: That's a new one.

Christina: Okay. I'd love for you guys to share. You shared one already that teacher, you know, that he had these prime years. Um, can you share another great success story, um, that's come across your path?

Alanna: Yeah. Well, I mean, so the, the cool thing about, uh, connecting with professors as your consumer is that they love to do research.

So they've [00:27:00] been doing, we have how many right now that are doing their own research in their, in their classes? They're just like, and then sharing all the data points, they're so excited about it. Um, and so I would say, one, which you would almost think would be the opposite would occur, was she introduced Flipdin her class, um, I think it was 250 students and, uh, her DFW rates, which is, getting a grade of D F or withdrawing from the chorus actually all decreased. Um, and you would think that someone who is being imposed upon to use something like Flipd, um, which is asking them to unplug for a semester, someone who would really hate that idea would be like, oh, screw this course, like I'm going to go take something else.

Um, especially if it's like a psych 100 course, but the fact that it actually was reduced, um, and everyone's grades improved that it's like to me early evidence that something like this is so necessary, especially for first year [00:28:00] college students that, you know, have never been told "you have to unplug. It's really important for your mental and physical health. Um, when you're going in transitioning to something like a college education, that's really demanding and life-changing."

Um, and so to me, I think, yeah, if, if we have any evidence at all, that we can help. You know, 18 year olds and 19 year olds going away for school for the first time, like, that's, that's really exciting for me,

Cristian: That on the education side. But on the consumer side, like we just started doing like challenges where you can do, how many minutes can you get in a month? And there's a couple people there that have just I'm like, are they cheating or are they spending 24, 7 pretty much using Flipd.

And then they'll take a step back to use their phone for like five minutes and then they continue their day with Flipd. And it's crazy like Emily has, I don't know. She must spend, it gets very competitive. And I start always like on the top three,

Alanna: This person in the other hemisphere named Emily is at the top of our leaderboard right now. He's [00:29:00] like neck and neck with her.

Cristian: I'm always like, what is she doing? Like she's just all day. And like, I want to learn more about like, we will usually talk to like our users and she's one of our ambassadors, but you know, it, it just blows my mind with how some people would make this part of their everyday life.

And this is how they want to spend their day and they want to be mindful of their cell phone and, just just implementing something that laid onto the app and then seeing the huge impact and competition and people wanted to spend time disconnected. Um, it just kind of has blown my mind in the last month, I think since we implemented it now and now people are starting their own challenges, uh, which is cool to see too.

Christina: What would be an example a challenge?

Alanna: So it's exactly like a step challenge. Um, so it's out of, you know, this month. Usually there'll be like some sort of threshold that you're trying, that everyone on the leaderboard is trying to reach. And you're just like climbing up the leaderboard, whoever reaches, like I'm on my Garmin in like a 60,000 step challenge per week.

Um, which is, yeah, you'd have to do. A little less than like 9,500 a day steps or [00:30:00] so, um, so this is exactly the same in that it's how many minutes per month can you achieve? And we give them like, can you get to 10,000?

Cristian: Um, I started with 5,000 and then everybody just went, did that 5,000 in the first week.

I'm like, that was too easy. Let's try something, let's try something different. Um, and, and we're just still learning from what our users are doing. And we're like, okay, let's try something else. And we, we kind of just test theories there and then learn from, from them. Like we were users, but sometimes some of our users are like crazy champions and we're like, they need something harder.

They need something better. Um, so that's sort of what we learned.

Christina: How's your brother doing?

Cristian: Good. Uh, my brother now it's all about wellness, eating healthy meditation. Um, very self-aware. It's completely turned around, I think, um, I mean, you've seen him growing up since he was like a little kid and kind of go through all his chapters of life.

Alanna: Yeah. Eight to 18. Yeah. It's been quite something to, well, it's quite [00:31:00] something to watch, uh, someone from a generation that's like a decade younger than myself and watching them grow up in the world that we are now in. I think like things are, are a lot more challenging for young people, um, these days compared to the way that it was when I was 16, 17 years old. Like I remember when I got Facebook and, um, you know, what that sort of, how that sort of impacted everyone's lives, but it wasn't like all consuming.

There was nothing that was all consuming back then, um, when it came to technology. And so, like, I, I think that it's shifted. Um, but you know, the way that we used to do things has now shifted for the most part online, but I do think that a lot of it has gotten a lot harder. Um, so anyone who can sort of overcome that, um, and not, you know, succumb to that whole thing that everyone else does.

I think like, especially in your brother's case, he's, he's, he's done a really good job of having [00:32:00] self-awareness and not constantly being plugged in and he's totally his own person and life doesn't care what anyone thinks, which is cool.

Cristian: So I think everything worked out.

Christina: That's pretty amazing. I think I, I want to close on just when I walked in here, I've known Cristian and Alanna for awhile, but they told me at the start of this morning's interview, that they're actually a couple, uh, which is super awesome.

And I'm curious how you guys keep each other in check around technology because technology has become a big point of conflict in a lot of relationships, you know, one person will pull it out and then, you know, there's all these unspoken rules. So then the other one will pull it out. And then, you know, 45 minutes later, there's, you know, people are sitting on the couch together, not talking to each other and these things just happen.

So how do you guys, uh, call each other to some accountability around that?

Alanna: We do have rules exactly like that. So if we are out somewhere and it's [00:33:00] like, okay, I need to check something because like, maybe we want to look up, um, where we, where we want to go out for dinner tonight or something. If one of us pulls at our phone, the other one can't.

So we can't be those two people sitting at the restaurant with both our phones out. So like, if, if I do he like, just instinctively also does I like, I'm just like, no, I can't. I cannot be that, that couple when we're out. Um, and I'll tell you, I'm like, no, I'm on my phone right now. You can't also be on your phone, just like sit and like, I'll just be a second.

Cristian: Yeah, we have that. And then like, when we go to like events or dinners or something, that's like, I'm going to dinner. Do not expect to hear from me, until, like I'm done. And, you know, we, we don't want to be that person that is like texting in the middle of a dinner or a networking event, because a lot of the times in a networking event, people will pull out their phones because they're uncomfortable and you can use it as a way to be like, oh, I didn't network, because you were texting me or something.

So it's just like, I gotta go do something I'll be back to you. So it's just like, we don't need to also be connected 24 7. It's like, [00:34:00] yeah. I mean, we work together. We train together. So it's like, if we have an event or something like this, go, do you, and then we will have something to talk about. Yeah, I think we've, we've done a pretty good job with that.

I, I think starting a business together, it's already a challenge and we're spending a lot of time together. So we have to create our own rules of like, when we step out of work, work stays behind. When we get home, it's just like a different conversation. Um, how we use our technology around other people, we have to be mindful that.

Um, we don't, we're also not like cute social media posters or anything like that. So like, I kind of on purpose, if I go to a trip, I will wait a couple of days until I post a picture. I'm like, kind of let that moment absorb and like, oh yeah, I really like that. Maybe I'll post this one a few days later, but not like, as I'm doing this, like posting or posting.

Alanna: But also when it comes to, when we do post, like when we travel, we do like to share stories like Instagram stories, because we know our friends are going to get to see them.

So we kind of actually do that together. So. We'll make sure that we'll, we'll take a picture and like, oh, is your picture the one that we should use? And [00:35:00] we built, it's like a collaborative, a collaborative experience that the both of us sort of do together. Um, which I don't, I don't know if other couples do stuff like that.

Um, but it's like, we, we are either, you know, very, uh, conscious about like not using it, um, you know, completely unintentionally around the other person where like, we're both just like on our phones, but then when we do use our devices, it's, it's very intentional. Oh, well we often even go like, oh, like, here's what I'm doing.

I need to do this. And then like to explain to the other person, like, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to ignore you right now, but I just need to be checking this thing. And then I put it away. Like we're yeah, the intention and awareness is very high between us, for sure. Um, And I can see why, definitely why, um, if there are couples that don't have that, why that would be incredibly challenging, because you're just basically fighting for attention between a phone and you like your [00:36:00] partner, you want your partner's attention and if they are giving more of it to their phone, I would be, I would be incredibly frustrated by that.

Um, and you know, now that the more I talk about it, I'm starting to see like some of the people in my life who maybe do that a little too much and, and probably owe it a little bit to their partner to be more aware and conscious about their use. Yeah.

Christina: Those are incredible strategies for experiencing JOMO as a couple.

Alanna: That's so funny. I've never even really thought about that, that's just like...

Christina: That's a lot of intentionality, even the thing of when one has a phone out and the other doesn't I've never heard that before.

Alanna: Really? That's a huge one for us.

Cristian: A big one about that to you. I was like, don't take your phone out. And I'm like

Christina: Both sitting there, staring down.

Cristian: I don't know. I find Fridays when I walk out of the office, like computer gone, cell phone gone, and then it's like, oh, it's Monday. Where's like, where's my computer. Where's my cell phone. Uh, I kind of do that. My mom doesn't love it. She's like, when do I talk to you? It's just like, oh, you can just come over.

And [00:37:00] then I, but I'm also not like the one calling a lot of people either. If I'm with my friends right now that I enjoy the people that are around me at that moment. Um, someone else texted me for another plan, then I'll go hang out with them. And then I'm with them.

Christina: I'm going to close on this. Alanna, what's the biggest thing, bringing you joy these days?

Alanna: Biggest thing bringing me joy is, um, managing an amazing group of people, um, and watching our business grow with absolute disbelief in how far we've come, um, and how it's it's made me, uh, just, I think a much stronger person, um, and more confident, uh, as a leader, you know, I think when we first started this company, we didn't really know exactly what we're doing. Um, and this was a long time ago, so I'm really proud of where we are right now. [00:38:00] Um, so yeah, my, my work and, and leadership and personal growth that I've achieved over the last couple of years, I would say that's, what's bringing me the most joy right now.

Christina: That's super cool. How about you, Cristian?

Cristian: Well, I would've said the same thing, but since Alanna said it, oh, I will say that in my personal life, well, the things that brings me joy is I've been training for a lot of races. And what brings me joy is when I go for a long bike ride and to see how far my life can take me or my body can go, I think those are the things that I'm like, holy crap. I can't believe I biked 150 kilometers, you know, went to lake Simcoe or back or something. And it's just like, my legs did that. Um, and I get to nature and I get to see or experience the cars and birds and the water. And it's just like, that's awesome that my body can do that. And I'm always kind of pushing into: what's the next thing that I want to do? Alanna's always laughing and she's like, it seems like you always want to start like a new hobby, like slacklining or something like that. And I think [00:39:00] all of that goes back to when I moved to Canada, I was like, I always gotta be learning, doing something and every summer, I'm like, I got to try to learn a new skill.

I'm not great at slacklining, but I saw someone doing it. Let's order one on Amazon and let's do it now. We both are pretty good

Alanna: I'll show him a new yoga pose that took me like 30 days to figure out and he's like, let me try it. He like gets right up there.

Christina: You're one of those people.

Cristian: Some things are hard, but I think finding those little things that might seem harder or a challenge and figuring out a way to do it, even if it's hard, I think that is very rewarding. I think my last one that I did that was like changing a tire out of, from a bike, like the tube. I did a horrible job the first three times. And Allana was like, why don't you just go to the shop and get it done? I was like, no, I have to get it done. Um, and that brought me joy. I was like, I did it like after the third time.

And it exploded the first few times. I'm like, I'm going to figure this out. And I was so proud of that.

Christina: I love that. And I feel like that's a really amazing place to close because technology is, most of technology is so focused on ease right? [00:40:00] And efficiency. And the reality is we have an incredible amount of pride, like I'm hearing you both talk about. When we accomplish something, when we actually put in the hard work of doing something inefficient, like changing a tire or learning how to lead a team and growing a company, that's actually creating a healthy profit. Right. And there's incredible joy in those things.

And so, um, our constant push for ease and efficiency doesn't always serve, but there's good in inefficiency as well.

Alanna: Yeah. That's, I mean, I think a challenge, and overcoming a challenge is what ultimately makes you more confident and, and successful and feel that, that sense of achievement.

Cristian: Celebrating the small wins.

Yeah. And we do that in our personal life. I know work life as well.

Christina: Thank you both so much for being with me today.

Alanna: Yeah, this is awesome.